Choosing Hardware for linux to be run upon, dual boot maybe

You don't have to worry about RT/ARM unless you are buying a Windows Tablet or Smartphone which is what that architecture was designed for.Most or all Linux Distros come in 32 or 64 bit Architecture . I have Zorin installed on an old Dell laptop 32bit and it runs fine.That being said, I would highly recommend a 64bit capable machine simply because of its ability to use more than 4 gigs of RAM.You can never have too much RAM.You will need an .ISO image CD/DVD to install Linux. You download the .ISO file and then burn it to a CD/DVD. As for security,most Linux machines are not affected by viruses/malware.All you really need is to make sure  your Firewall is on,once you finish the install. If you are going to purchase a laptop,I would recommend a machine with an AMD processor,dual core at least. They are cheaper than Intel processors and you get more bang for your buck - in my humble opinion-.. I currently have Windows7/Zorin/and MintMate installed on my HP machine and have had no problems .I use 12 gigs of RAM and I know Cat uses a lot more- you can never have too much RAM !! I would definitely read the specs of whatever unit you are buying to see how much memory it supports. Then Max it out with memory,and you should be good to go! I'm sure there are a lot of people in this group who may have different opinions,but that is my 2cents worth! Hope that helps! Paul

You will have to use  "ISO" somewhere along the line when you want to download and install Linux... and using Torrents from the Distros server / Mirrors  if they have that option is probably better than using a direct DLoad  either FTP or HTTP..in my opinion...  You can and should check  its MD5sum file before and after downloading that way you know you have exactly the same as the developer uploaded.. you also know if your download has been corrupted en route if it has it probably wont install or run right....

Torrents are also better for people with slow or restricted band width

 

In over 12yrs of downloading, burning, installing and Using Linuxs I have never had any security issues with Torrents ..and have only had a few corruption issues with any form of downloading  and thats 100s of distros

 

 

For Windows programs disc images etc..I would refrain from downloading them at all..its not a problem of the Torrent its the problem with what people upload to the server..Pirated rograms can easilly have a trojan or worm etc installed ... In theory using te MD5sum  check should work the same but you need to know the original programs MD5sum..not just the one the uploader posts..

 

32 or 64 bit......You can if you have an older 32 bit comp kicking around  install a lot of linux distros on it...dept on its Ram cpu etc..but many Distros offer a 32 and a 64 bit version...but f you want to use Windows 8 etc as well maybe you will be after a 64bit....

I would highly recommend a 64bit capable machine simply because of its ability to use more than 4 gigs of RAM.

That limitation is a Windows thing. AFAIK all PAE-enabled 32-bit Linux operating systems can use up to 64GiB of RAM.

EDIT: Here's some more info:

While a 32-bit operating system can use up to 64GiB of RAM:

Each application can only see 4 GiB at a time (and some of that 4GiB must be used for other things, the exact amount depending on the "Memory split" kernel setting)

http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/60151/what-a-64-bit-linux-can-do-that-32-bit-linux-cant

Edited by Al1000, 12 March 2015 - 05:53 PM.

Jman005, post #10 : Am i right in thinking that windows 8 and 8.1 systems use intel chips and RT and RT.1 use ARM systems then, I would never go near an RT computer (the RT system is something i would never venture near, no freedom to install programs, just (cr)apps). If i buy my machine in a shop (as is my intention) I'll make sure to be very clear about my wish to avoid RT/ARM machines. I intend to buy the machine, boot up and first make a system image (with window's 8/8.1 s own imaging tool) onto a USB, then annhilate the bloat/junk/cr*p ware, install some windows programs, make another image (should i use window's tool for this or a third party imaging program? or both?) and then work on testing and dual booting with linux.

I plan to use the machine for: general browsing(with firefox), watching online videos(youtube and some catchup services, mostly flash based video), watching DVDs(with VLC), a little 3d modelling with blender(this isn't as processor/RAM intensive as one might expect, my old XP machine with hardware about 8 years old can do it). I would like to be able to accomplish these sets of tasks in both the installed windows OS and the linux OS i plan to dual boot with, I really want to try out linux and find if there are ways it can work well for me because i don't like the look of where windows is heading for (RT devices show that sort of thing). I would intend to try wine in linux and see if all the windows programs i use ( i know some can but i don't know about others) can be run under linux using it, if enough can then i would probably never boot into the windows OS again, if not enough can i would boot into windows when i needed to use such programs and linux at all other times. I also want to have this computer serving as a backup for my main one, not a backup as in files(they're all backed up already on USB, CD-RW and the cloud) but a backup machine so when my current machine has a hardware death (which i can tell is soon approaching) i don't have to go weeks without a computer whilst getting a new one/trying to get the current machine repaired. I think this is a good oportunity to get a type of machine which should work well with linux so i can begin trying it sooner rather than later.

cat1092, post #11 : thanks for confirming why RT devices should not be touched with a barge pole a light year long.

Jman005, Post #12 : what do ISO files have to do with this? I don't plan to do that on windows and not on linux either, are you just trying to say that linux isn't as secure as some beleive (as in that kind of action would infect it?)? On this subject i will need to ask some questions about security on linux at some point, mainly in regard to avoiding exploits and malvertising via flash/java/firefox/chrome etc.

A other thing, should i be going for 64 or 32 bit devices, I'm not sure if 32 bit exists any more and i don't know whether how many bits windows has is due to underlying hardware which would have an effect on linux compatibility. Also i notice some laptops are available with really short booting times(from what i hear it's because they never quite properly shut down), should i be avoiding this sort?

You are correct about RT using ARM systems.

 

You may want to just use Windows' own tool, HowToGeek has a tutorial here: http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/4241/how-to-create-a-system-image-in-windows-7/  

 

I'm assuming you want to dual boot by downloading an ISO, burning it and partitioning the drive. With security, Linux is pretty good, although as it is getting more popular every year more types of malware are being developed for it. Linux' command prompt has had exploits in the past, but it shouldn't be a problem

with Windows 8 -8.1 you should make sure you turn off fast boot.. if you have a dual boot machine..or you can end up losing data.....

 

In theory using te MD5sum  check should work the same but you need to know the original programs MD5sum

MD5 has been broken for a few years now.

 

 

That limitation is a Windows thing. AFAIK all PAE-enabled 32-bit Linux operating systems can use up to 64GiB of RAM.

 

That's correct, for the most part, it's a Windows deal. Though there are some workarounds to that, to the best of my knowledge, they're licensed apps (such as RAMDisk by Raxco). $79 (the app's licensing fee) would purchase that same user a true 64 bit OS on promo. Though I'm sure there are exceptions, I've never seen more than 4GB RAM in a mass produced 32 bit computer of any type, most all of these were for home/small business use. 

 

However, PAE doesn't totally make up for having a true 64 bit OS, and since the images are at no cost, why not install a 64 bit OS onto a 64 bit computer, even one with only 4GB RAM installed? One reason is that only the 64 bit OS unlocks all of the features of the CPU, such as being able to load a whole lot more into virtual memory than a 32 bit OS could possibly muster. 

 

The other has to do with the Linux 32 bit OS only being able to use RAM in 4GB clusters. Note that when referring to RAM, I use GB, rather than GiB, because there's no catch involved in the capacity, we get what we purchase. It's not measured in the way storage is, fortunately. Now, about those 4GB clusters, and I've seen this issue come up more than once, maybe a half dozen times. 

 

If say one wanted to create a virtual machine, and assigns it 8GB RAM, there's going to be problems. That's twice the allocated cluster limit to the one app, not to mention the software to fire it up. With today's ever demanding software taxing both RAM & CPU resources, plus Linux support for 64 bit computers are as great as ever, there's no need to messing around with a 32 bit OS if the computer is 64 bit capable. The only exception to that rule that I can see, if there's other legacy hardware to be attached to the computer that only has 32 (or 16) bit support/drivers, in which case is likely dated anyway, and budget restraints are preventing upgrades. This would be likely more of a business than a home issue, there's wireless printers beginning at $29 (in USD). Nicer or 'workstation' units for $100 or so. I can't blame a small business whom paid $3,000 for a top of the line printer 8-10 years ago to hang on a little longer, as long as it doesn't need costly repairs. In which case, these can be replaced with one for a fourth of the price of the old & will pay for themselves with lower ink & maintenance costs, as well as being in compliance of today's needs. 

 

At least in the US, to the best of my knowledge, the last 32 bit computers that were distributed widely were netbooks, this was during the early Windows 7 years & many had a 2GB RAM restriction, because the installed OS was Starter. Even most popular smartphones now are or about to become 64 bit only. 

 

I'm not saying that the PAE concept is totally useless, however Linux has advanced beyond the days of being able to run most any distro on any device, and this is good. There are a few exceptions, such as Puppy, that will, it's just that mainstream versions will no longer run on a 10+ year old PC picked up from the curbside w/out some hardware upgrades. This is part of the notion that holds LInux back, is what it's long been known for, reviving computers from the dead. For Linux to have a good chance at becoming mainstream, it must become better known for living in tune with the times. 

 

Which is why 64 bit LInux is as popular as ever & growing, across the board. Mainstream Linux distros are living & thriving in 2015.

 

Cat

However, PAE doesn't totally make up for having a true 64 bit OS, and since the images are at no cost, why not install a 64 bit OS onto a 64 bit computer, even one with only 4GB RAM installed?

Yes, I agree. I was just addressing the point about how much RAM 32-bit operating systems are able to use.

There are a few exceptions, such as Puppy

My old laptop which doesn't run any of the *buntu 14.04 distros, won't run Tahr Puppy (which is based on Ubuntu 14.04) either.

 

 

My old laptop which doesn't run any of the *buntu 14.04 distros, won't run Tahr Puppy (which is based on Ubuntu 14.04) either. 

 

My old one won't either!

 

Didn't expect it to, but had to try anyway. It does boot & run from the rest of my computers though. 

 

I'd say that for the price range, the OP (rp88) has choices within the budget range, though the better deals will likely be found on the Internet, such as the one listed on Amazon. I don't purchase from them often because Newegg runs better deals in the US on computer components, however their customer service is excellent. Plus the computer was being sold by them & not a sub-vendor, that's when things gets risky. While Amazon will make these 3rd parties 'do the right thing', it's a lot of time & trouble to go through. 

 

When purchasing from Amazon, I only use them, no 3rd party sellers. 

 

Cat

Ok so for clarification:


shadow-warrior post#17 : Are ubuntu and linux mint "ISO" files available for direct download (like all the downloads on this site are) from the main websites for those two operating systems or is a more complex protocol the only option for downloading them? Once the ISO is downloaded do you just copy it to cd or usb, or must something complex be done? How is checking of the md5 done?

shadow-warrior post#20 : can you please explain that a little further, and the details of how to do it. Also would setting windows to not have the fast booting settings help improve hardware lifetimes? because if windows is fast booting and never fuly turns off then wouldn't that be wearing out the harddrive?

various posts by various users : From the long discussion on the subject of 32 and 64 bt machines and operating systems, am i right in thinking almost all machines selling these days are 64 bit and that most (if not all) linux distributions are happy to run on 64 bit hardware?

To clarify something else, my only hardware constraints are as follows(i think thye are the sort of things which are fairly standard):
1. the machine must have USB ports where i can plug in NTFS and FAT32 formatted usb memory sticks and copy data to and from them, whichever OS is being used at the time.
2. the machine must have a cd/dvd drive with which i can write files to and copy them from CD-RW discs and play DVDs with VLC, whichever OS is being used at the time.
3. the machine must be able to interface with a USB mouse( i can't stand scroll pads) while in either OS, it will need to be able to work with the same USB mouse whichever OS it is in, but as I'll be buying the mouse when i get the laptop I don't have any "fixed legacy hardware requirements" here.
4. the machine needs an ethernet port for the internet connection which will work whichever OS is being used at the time.
5. the machine audio jacks for speakers/headphones which will work whichever OS is being used at the time.

I was planning to buy in store from PC world so i have placed below a link to their page describing which types of laptops they sell, can anyone suggest if any of these fit particularly well for running linux and windows in a dual booting setup, can you see if any of these have particular hardware used which would be likely to give me problems? Or does that one on amazon look a much better deal?
http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/laptops-netbooks/laptops/laptops/703_7006_70006_xx_xx/xx-299_xx-299-criteria.html
I hope the site does not try to reject users from outside the uk or redirect them to a US or international version.

Edited by rp88, 13 March 2015 - 03:03 PM.

 

Are ubuntu and linux mint "ISO" files available for direct download

Yes.

Here for Ubuntu

http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop

 

And here for Mint

http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php

 

 

Once the ISO is downloaded do you just copy it to cd or usb,

How to burn an ISO to cd.

 

Notice:  This applies only to Windows 7 and Windows 8, earlier versions do not have this.
 
1.  Place a blank CD or DVD in the tray of your optical drive and close the tray.
 
2.  After you have downloaded the ISO image you want to burn right click on the Start orb, then choose Windows Explorer.
 
3.  When Explorer opens click on Downloads in the left pane.  Scroll down till you find the ISO file you want and double click on it.  Click on Burn Disk Image.
 
4.  In the image below you will see Disk burner:, this should be set to the optical drive you want to use.  Click on Verify disc after burning if you want to Windows to verity the disc image after burn.  Click on burn.
 

 
5.  In the image below you can see that the green progress bar, when the image is finished burning the bar will be filled.
 

 
6.  After the image has completed being burned click on Close.

 

 

How to burn an ISO to usb with Unetbootin. While I am using Ubuntu in the video the process is the same in Windows.

https://youtu.be/V8HgWh_eDS4

rp88, I'd say that out of that entire list you posted, even though Intel is my preference, Celeron CPU's are garbage & have long to be known as such, these should have been retired over 10 years back. Pentium is better, but isn't like those of it's glory years. The HP with the A6-5200 will smoke the rest on the list & will likely have better graphics.

 

More on AMD APU's (CPU & GPU in one).

 

http://www.amd.com/en-us/innovations/software-technologies/enhanced-media/apu

 

No Intel Celeron CPU can even come close to matching performance. If there were an i3 or i5 in the list, I'd recommend it without a second thought, so even though I'm biased towards Intel, I can also spot troubles. Any Intel CPU below a i3 these days aren't worth bothering looking at, let alone considering purchasing. Once you use an app that requires power, you're in trouble with the Celeron. Even the higher rated Pentiums aren't that much better in that regard. 

 

Cat

Edited by cat1092, 14 March 2015 - 01:29 AM.

NickAu : thanks for the instructions.



cat1092 : Ok, so celeron processors give poor performance, I'll try to stay away from them then, that does rather limit the list. Will all of them be of types able to run linux though? or can you see any of those laptops which will likely have trouble with secure boot or some other thing when i attempt to boot into linux?

EDIT: my current machine has the following specifications for it's processor, is the celeron at lot worse than these?

Intel Core i3 3210M
Cores 2
Threads 4
Name Intel Core i3 3210M
Code Name Ivy Bridge
Package Socket 988B rPGA
Technology 22nm
Specification Intel Core i3-3120M CPU @ 2.50GHz
Family 6
Extended Family 6
Model A
Extended Model 3A
Stepping 9
Revision E1/L1
Instructions MMX, SSE, SSE2, SSE3, SSSE3, SSE4.1, SSE4.2, Intel 64, NX, VMX, AVX
Virtualization Supported, Enabled
Hyperthreading Supported, Enabled
Bus Speed 99.8 MHz
Stock Core Speed 2500 MHz
Stock Bus Speed 100 MHz
Average Temperature 38 °C
Caches
L1 Data Cache Size 2 x 32 KBytes
L1 Instructions Cache Size 2 x 32 KBytes
L2 Unified Cache Size 2 x 256 KBytes
L3 Unified Cache Size 3072 KBytes
Cores
Core 0
Core Speed 1197.1 MHz
Multiplier x 12.0
Bus Speed 99.8 MHz
Temperature 38 °C
Threads APIC ID: 0, 1
Core 1
Core Speed 1197.1 MHz
Multiplier x 12.0
Bus Speed 99.8 MHz
Temperature 38 °C
Threads APIC ID: 2, 3
thanks

Edited by rp88, 14 March 2015 - 01:02 PM.

1. the machine must have USB ports where i can plug in NTFS and FAT32 formatted usb memory sticks and copy data to and from them, whichever OS is being used at the time.
2. the machine must have a cd/dvd drive with which i can write files to and copy them from CD-RW discs and play DVDs with VLC, whichever OS is being used at the time.
3. the machine must be able to interface with a USB mouse( i can't stand scroll pads) while in either OS, it will need to be able to work with the same USB mouse whichever OS it is in, but as I'll be buying the mouse when i get the laptop I don't have any "fixed legacy hardware requirements" here.
4. the machine needs an ethernet port for the internet connection which will work whichever OS is being used at the time.
5. the machine audio jacks for speakers/headphones which will work whichever OS is being used at the time.

 

!.Nearly all modern laptops have at least 2,usually 4 or 6 USB ports. If not yu can buy an inexpensive USB Hub.

2.Same here-most modern laptops have a built in CDRW drive- some even have a Blue Ray CDRW.

3.USB Mouses are fairly common.I use and prefer a track-ball mouse.It works better with music writing software that I use.

4.All Computers have an Ethernet Port and the newer laptops usually,but not always have wi-fi!

5.All laptops have these kind of jacks,however, I have found in Linux that you have to control the sound level differently in different applications.

 

As Cat said -steer clear of Celeron Processors and go with Intel or AMD with a dual core at least.I'm an AMD man myself -they are less expensive and just as good and give you the ability to overclock the processor is you choose to.I don't recommend doing that unless you know exactly what you are doing!

 

You have an Intel Icore3 in your current machine,and yes,that is much better than a Celeron Processor ! As for the EUFI/BIOS secure boot,I will have to leave that for someone else to answer-

 

 

my current machine has the following specifications for it's processor, is the celeron at lot worse than these?

 

Yes, it's Far Worse!

 

Your current setup would run circles around the Celeron CPU, and really is a middle of the road CPU, a little newer than my Toshiba with a i3 (i3-370M). As I stated, am a Intel fan, but that lineup should have been gone years ago. Yours are even better than current dual core Pentiums, which doesn't have the advantage of 4 threads (hyperthreading). 

 

They keep these rot-gut CPU's alive for the sake of battery life (& for those who cannot afford more). Sure, they may extend a battery's life by a couple of hours, the answer to that is to have a spare battery, for models with user replaceable ones. Some brands has went to non-consumer replaceable batteries. Plus I don't care what they say, it's not good for a notebook battery to fully drain it every day, rather a sure fire way to kill it fast. Batteries should be placed on a charger when they reach 40% drain on the meter when possible (after a one or two cycle break in period). Consult manual & online documentation for details. 

 

While the OEM's may push 10.5 to 12 hour battery life in ads, once the box is open, there's normally a warning that states not to fully drain it with every use. This is for benchmark specs only, what it's capable of. Of course, for that battery to last that long, a weak CPU is needed, no way would it last that long with an i3/i5/i7. Some of us just wants to get our work done, and doesn't even need to be on battery power all the time. It's good for students & some on the go professionals, but there's even car chargers for the latter, as well as re-chargable USB power bricks for when needed. 

 

As to Linux, there are versions with the needed signed keys, hopefully another member can fill us in on which has these. 

 

My PC came with Secure Boot enabled, however for whatever reason, Microsoft decided not to issue keys to Windows 7 consumers, whom represents nearly or more than 55% of the total OS market share. So I had to disable it for that OS, my versions are all Full Retail ones, or those that I purchased an Anytime Upgrade Key to Pro/Ultimate for, and am not going to throw out over $600 of software just on that PC alone over Secure Boot. Which we've discussed in the past, secures Microsoft's interests better than ours. Maybe it was that pressure that caused MS to issue keys for Linux OS's other than Red Hat, which is used my many professionals. 

 

Microsoft has employees who does nothing except check out Forum content (BleepingComputer.com is an 'A-List' forum), as well as article content, so they knew the demand was there. Plus at least 20% of their Azure customers are running Linux OS's, which is a key part of their business today. With Steve Ballmer out of the picture, Linux is no longer the enemy (or cancer, his preferred term for Linux), rather opportunity to grow. Which is good for everyone. 

 

As for Steve Ballmer, he'll have plenty of chances to sling office furniture with his newly acquired NBA Team. Maybe he'll pull a Bob Knight like chair throw one day to entertain the world.

 

Cat

Edited by cat1092, 15 March 2015 - 12:14 AM.